Comments on: Agents Provocateurs

By: Michael

Michael — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 03:19:18 +0000

None of the real protesters wore disguises?

Why in the world would you say that? You have the high ground.

The video showed several protesters wearing hoods and only one of them removed theirs in front of the cops.

By: Sami Khan

Sami Khan — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:19:52 +0000

They will be keeping a record of everything you are carrying, what you are reading, where you are going, and who you are staying with:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/21/AR2007092102347_pf.html
But yes the free bloggers are open to all sorts of questioning and spying. How is this surveillance/data gathering different from a criminal record? They may use it against you to deny you your basic rights and freedoms, entry into a country, or even use it to deport you to Syria. There is a music professor in the US that they’ve simply denied a visa to and they won’t say why, she’s on unpaid leave at the school she teaches at down there. There is a DHS officer who has been using the system to keep an eye on his ex-girlfriend. I mean all of this amounts to psychological torture and increasing paranoia about what you can or can not say without being branded. If this is not psychological warfare against the public, I don’t know what is… and not knowing about it only makes things more difficult.

By: dnorman

dnorman — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:20:46 +0000

I think much of it is related to our society’s extremely strong aversion to risk. Big Media won’t speak the truth, out of risk of losing advertisers, as well as possibly losing access to the newsmakers (white house dropping press credentials or access to the presidential press room).

Individuals can’t/won’t speak out en masse, out of risk of losing employment, or worse. The implied threat of terrorism watch lists likely has much to do with this – if you protest, you get added to a List. Add to the fact that there are “free speech zones” at major events. Pres. Bush in town? You are free to protest, within the confines of this defined area, well away from the press and the Pres. Protest anywhere else, and you might win a free trip to Cuba.

Freedoms have been surrendered willingly by the people of Canada and the US, initially out of fear (we’re doing this to stop the evil terrorists. you don’t support the terrorists, do you? then shut up already!), and then because they don’t know any better.

It’s even more surprising that the US population, with “Live Free or Die” bumper stickers on their pickup trucks, are so passively handing over their civil rights to a government (both elected and shadow) of possible war criminals. The right to bear arms isn’t about defending your home from burglars, it’s about having the power and ability to take down a corrupt and authoritarian government.

Having said that, I get to see how many watch lists I’ve been added to first hand, as I travel to Utah next week…

By: Sami Khan

Sami Khan — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:04:17 +0000

@David: I wonder if anyone here has any theories about how change actually works, and how to be more effective in effecting change. Speaking the truth, when you have a little voice and the liars have megaphones, isn’t really all that effective. To me in many ways it’s a question of efficiency, if you have that many people and a decent amount of resources in terms of time and labour, how is that effort best spent in actually preventing authoritarianism or other evils? Can we shame politicians in to not being authoritarians or keep them from getting elected by marketing the fact that their policies verge on authoritarianism? How can we best utilize our voices to effect change? An unfocused effort or an ineffective effort is a waste of time, and this to me seems to be a standard business problem. We’re in the business of keeping the country running well, protecting our rights and liberties, and preventing authoritarians from ruling the world. We have probably a few hundred thousand employees in that effort. How can we best utilize these resources to make change? Actually I am going to fork this topic to my blog and then try to come up with a better understanding of what we’re trying to accomplish and what are some effective means of doing that… Make it a sub-project of my overcrowded life.

By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:12:16 +0000

Sami-
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”

At some point- it becomes relevant. If the gap between rich and poor continues to grow in the US- eventually there will be an uprising- as the financial system falls apart-
but, until then – many will sit and think- oh, this doesn’t apply to me.
If enough people say- there is a different way- change happens-
so we need to keep making our chirps.
Protests aren’t that effective either- Fahrenheit 911 showed protests during Bush’s coronation ceremony (no, that isn’t a typo) and we never saw any of it on the news…
Just keep speaking the truth- hopefully, it will set us all free.

By: Sami Khan

Sami Khan — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 17:36:22 +0000

@David: Perhaps there is a thresholded that has to be crossed before people care enough to take to the streets or stand up for their rights and the rights in public and we’re helping reach that threshold by venting? I mean, I do think that it does make some difference, it may be (much) better than saying absolutely nothing, and perhaps it could be used much more effectively? Maybe we need a flash protest?

By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:33:42 +0000

D’Arcy-
Your venting does make a difference- Stephen Colbert’s rant aside-
That incident would have slipped right by me here in the USA where our news has been turned into McNews- and the rest of the world doesn’t matter. Sometimes, it only takes one connection- to tip off a chain of events, like fax being leaked- which is what started my protest.
None of us know what that one thing is- but, if we share our thoughts- somehow, those connections get made.
Sure- it’s not the same as protesting- but, thanks to this thread- I saw Sami’s response with the Colbert report on the tasered protester-
which I had read about on another blog- it all connects.
Give it time. It’s a step to a better future.

By: Sami Khan

Sami Khan — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:07:39 +0000

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Colbert_Todays_kids_dont_know_how_0920.html

By: Sami Khan

Sami Khan — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:36:24 +0000

Advitism – Using advertisement to promote the truth and civil liberties…

Thinking about the agent provocateurs and what to do about it when the government ignores us I came up with the idea of Advitism. I am thinking what we need is an advertisement platform like Google Ads or DoubleClick that promotes true ideas that the p…

By: Brian

Brian — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:33:15 +0000

I’ve joined a fair number of marches, some huge (350,000+ at an anti-Iraq War march in London) but am hard pressed to think of an instance when it accomplished an objective. The most dedicated political activists I know usually say the main tangible benefit of marches is to improve morale of the disgruntled, to give people a sense that they are not alone in their displeasure. A secondary benefit is drawing some attention to an issue. I figure blogging should be able to perform both of those functions just as ineffectually as marching.

But add me to the list of people appalled at the impunity with which the cops and the Harper government (who seemed to enjoy baiting the protestors with snarky remarks and those ludicrous surveillance cameras so “the protests could be heard”) flout the law. But the great majority of people are apathetic dumbshits, which gives authoritarian criminals all the immunity they need.